I understand orthofront if you’re divorced and you want to see your kid. I know someone who is orthodox when his kids are there. When his kids are with their mother … not so much … but in his community he maintains his front and I guess he parties elsewhere.
[a support group for those who leave the Faith.]
I think these are a good thing. Sometimes people have negative experiences with what other people do re: religion. Good to be able to work through feelings about that.
[But most guys are not willing to give it all up, and dont have the courage/chutzpa/nerve/want to break off from everything and everybody.]
I can understand that, even if I don’t agree with it.
That one would feel a need to break off from
everything and everybody, as you wrote, is, imo,
a gigantic chillul hashem and
not a good way to encourage people to become observant —
“Hey, become orthodox and you can
feel the heart-wrenching stomach pains from
feeling like if you choose to live differently than others,
you may choose to submit to what may feel like emotional blackmail
because the alternative is alienation
and feeling as if you are not loved unconditionally!”
And in the end, everyone's responsible for their own choices, and no one is emotionally blackmailed without their consent, but it's total bs that anyone would ever feel that they have to do as all others do or not be accepted/loved by their own families.
To me, that’s exactly what Judaism is NOT about!
And I find it reprehensible that I have seen people suffer emotionally because they don’t wish to live as every otherdox in the ‘hood does, or because their child(ren) choose(s) to live differently, or because they wish to not be as observant as their parents. The heartache is not logical (and neither is religion, but we know that).
And the isolation works both ways — I know people more observant than some other members of their families who have been socially isolated, as a result, too, unfortunately. The less observant aren’t necessarily poster children for tolerance, either, and I will defend with equal passion the need to respect more observant people, too (like having family gatherings on Sundays, not Saturdays; offering to bring in a kosher meal, if nonkosher food is being served; for examples; this is menschlichkeit 101, not who wears skirts or goes to shul. Imo, folks need to be more respectful of everyone and agree to disagree/practice differently and love each other, anyway.)
[So they stay “frum”, do the shake, go to shul, daven, dress like penguins, but when you sit down and have any meaningful conversation with them, you see they are totally empty.]
I’m sorry to hear that. I don’t “do” as much, but what I do, I love and it puts the sprinkles on my spiritual ice cream every day.
On a completely selfish level, that blows for people like me (single, not very observant [but not necessarily opposed to being more observant], but love and care about Judaism a whole lot and want to wind up marrying someone who also digs Judaism). Most times, when I see an observant guy, I don't bother saying anything to him, 'cause I don't think I'd he'd even consider dating me, since I'm not as observant. If I had known it all might be a front, I'd've said hi to a lot more people, over the years. Jeepers. I have no patience for fronts. --Friday morning-- actually, I want to be with someone who actually digs Judaism, so, whatever. I don't want to be with someone who's not observant if they also don't like Judaism, and I don't want to be with someone who puts up an orthofront if the joy of Judaism doesn't coarse through his heart like music or blood.
How do people eat at each other's houses, if there are tons of people who don't really care? Is the only place you can be sure anything's really kosher in bp one's own house or a restaurant with a mashgiach? Or have people agreed unspokenly to all keep kosher well and equally, and just be shells of people who don't feel spiritual fulfillment for the sake of communal pretending? I don't get it.
[Living in BP, I know hundreds of such ppl, seriously, and life goes on. Is it sick?? you bet it is, but thats life.]
I guess I’m just lucky. My BP days were fun and full of noodles with pot cheese (and I was a wee lass, too). Lol And being observant was a beautiful, magical thing. And when I am, it’s still pretty cool (don’t get me wrong, I didn’t believe in God for many years and I’ve walked a long and super-windy road to get to where I am today).
[And s(b), being a regular poster, you should know how not to judge why so many ppl do it.]
With all due respect, to say “you should know how” related to why people do stuff makes no sense whatsover. I’m not here to judge why. I’m trying to understand why. My opinion doesn’t matter. “You should” is my problem with people and religion. There’s plenty of “you should” in religion without other people laying more on top of those. If I want to know something, I SHOULD ask questions, which I do. Will I judge someone for fronting? There but for wanting to feed my family in my home go
[Will it change? I doubt it. It will only grow and grow.]
I hope you’re wrong, for Judaism’s sake.
[And yes the Crisis that all frum ppl are moving to
For whom is it a crisis that frum people are moving to
There’s “you should” again. Who are you to say why or where people should live? Who is anyone to say that for anyone but themselves? If you don’t want to live among hot chanis and escalades, move to the part of Amish country where they don’t use cars. I’m sure there are still attractive women there, but you won’t see escalades.